if you let the bush tax cuts expire as a whole, 80% of our deficit problems are taken care of with that, and it's an actual number, it's not 40 billion a year. it's an actual number. >> then you're raising taxes on the middle class. >> right, you're broadening the base. you're not going to be able to do that without -- >> but obama and romney pledged they don't want to raise taxes on the middle class. >> is it a realistic idea two years from now, three years from now? >> that's an important question, because as much as so many people, and i'm one of them, admire simpson-bowles and admire particularly i think the heroic contributions, and they really are, that alan simpson and erskine bowles made to get us close to a the resolution, it is a sweeping tax reform, and historically, tax reform has taken in the modern era years to do. the '86 tax act, the last time we had major tax reform in this country took four years to do, first introduced in '82 and so the idea that in the lame duck session we'll have big tax reform for the first two months of 2013 -- >> bowles and simpson would say get